Mass Effect Wiki


Indoctrination Theorists Say the Darndest Things, Part II

Remember the indoctrination theory? The brilliant and ingenious community project that would forever change the face of gaming? Well, friends, it's still going strong, and the evidence? It's still piling up. It's obvious to anyone with half a brain that the indoctrination theory is 100% proven. Like the Black Hole Theory, the IT is flawless, and denying it at this point is just ignorance. Go ahead, see for yourself.

Virmire indoctrinated salarians 3

Nah, I'm just kidding with you. For those of you who haven't read my other blog, "Indoctrination Theorists Say the Darndest Things". This is essentially a compilation of hilarious quotes from the craziest of Indoctrination Theorists. I started off my finding older quotes... until I got into an argument on YouTube that lasts to this day. Most of the quotes here are from that argument. The person in question was YouTuber IronicAtheist, on this YouTube video. If you want to experience the entire dramatic journey, feel free to follow that link. Whilst you're there, be sure to enjoy the amazing video!

Note: These are copy and pasted verbatim, save for vulgarity redaction as per the policies of Mass Effect Wiki. If you see quotation marks inside the Headquotes, that's me being quoted in his comment.

The Hard Proof

Be forewarned. This conversation involved many naughty words, various excessive rape analogies, and non sequiturs straight outta left field. You are about to enter the Twilight Zone.

“Destroy is the only real ending because of the Indoctrination Theory.”

Why have four choices when you can have one?

“No, really, look it up: those WERE indoctrination hints, because the original ending was SUPPOSED to be indotcrination: Bioware had to rewrite the story because of the leak, and the hints stayed in because EA was pressuring them for a release, and there wasn't time to remove them. Shepard's dreams about the kid? Those ARE supposed to represent indoctrnation closing in on his mind.”

Yeah, symbolism is overrated anyway.

“The extended cut gives more evidence. The only excuse I have heard for why it disproves it is because there was no reveal, yet I could point outthey got more to reveal just yet.”

Gotta love a good plot twist... that's revealed a year after the game comes out.

“There is no evidence against it, you are a liar.”

Indeed. I'm lying to dissuade people from picking Destroy, because I'm secretly an indoctrinated spy! You got me.

“You only get destroy at low EMS is because your will is too weak for it to matter. Especially since if Shepard did so ****ty the reapers don't want him anymore.”


“When the Leviathan forces you into your mind you hear the SAME EXACT sound as when you exit the beam that leads to the citadel. Shepard is also in the same pose as when he meets the kid.”

Well that pretty much settles it then. Similar sound effects and poses? What further proof do you need?

“When asked about the crucible in this "mind" world, he shifts his eyes like a Liar would do. Many think he foreshadows the Catalyst, but Bioware said the Catalyst is formed from Shepard's memories. Not only is this telling lol but also Leviathan seems to foreshadow lots of IT facts and hints :O”

I love how this is based on facts.

“Exactly jack***, it's not Fan Fiction because it's a Theory. "BioWare debunked" No they didn't, Bioware was asked about how the EC effects IT and they said they don't want to dictate interpretations and so it is still valid.”

Not saying anything=totally said yes

“Especially all the evidence added that help IT, and the lack of any evidence that contradict IT.”

Someone should really read more of my blogs. Or just a single MrBTongue video.

Indoctination Theory Claim
“Some say the VI would detect how far along you are indoctrinated too, yet every example we have involves a fully indoctrinated subject. Not someone who is still going through the process. Even if it could detect it, it would still speak to them since they still resist the Reapers.”

Hey look, more facts from the story!

“The ending to ME3 sucked and the fact that BioWare denied the "Indoctrination Theory" that tied everything together and made them look like geniuses means they're not very intelligent at all”

Tying everything together... by not resolving anything?

“The Child is made from Shepard's memories. The leviathan entered Shepard's mind and used his memories. Lev DLC was heavily about indoc :/”

I always thought it was about space-faring squids who **** that bed and ruined life for every resident of the Milky Way. But yeah, it's totally all about Indoctrination, you're right.

“Except they did leave it unresolved, or at least they resolved it very ambiguously. What does bioware define as the ending? With the EC the only part of the ending almost 100% unchanged was the star-child and old man scene. They changed everything else majorly, so when they said "no changing endings" they must not have meant the choices and catalyst scene.”

Well, I would define an ending as "whatever came last in the story".

“It was so ambiguous that the Starchild scene shows no reapers in synth and control, apparently they got destroyed regardless lol”

Are you sure we watched the same endings?

“Indoctrination is not a major theme" Actually it is. All bad guys indoctrinated.... Several DLCs about indoctrination and why 2 of the endings are wrong.”

Are you sure we played the same game?

“"it would know" If it knew he was only undergoing the process then it wouldn't shut down. Why? Because he isn't a threat. It's only when you have accepted the Reapers as the good guys that the VI enters indoctrination alert.”

I love how this was explicitly stated in the game itself.

“Shepard has it under control at a time where his will is strong and his doubt is lacking. In ME3 his will is withered and he is full of doubt.”

It's fun to pretend, isn't it?

“A loss of control game mechanic is not hard at all. It just takes simple scripting LOL Maybe they realized that if they made Indoc obvious, then people wouldn't still be talking about the game.”

Subtlety=obscurity=confusion=lying to your audience?

“Arrival had the most obvious hint: Harbinger: Struggle if you wish, your mind will be mine. Codex: Reaper indoctrination is an insidious means of corrupting organic minds. This 100% proves Harbinger has been trying to indoc Shepard.”

I love it when everything works out the way you want it to, because you want it to.

“Arrival is Canon FYI”

Anderson disagrees. I'll take his word over yours, sorry.

Arrival - guess who
“Shepard is an Anomaly, did you play Leviathan? The Reapers are afraid of Shepard. Even if that wasn't true, they deem him worthy of becoming a reaper... more so than Saren or Tim.”

Then why the hell did they kill me?

“Seriously shut the **** up if you are going to be this dumb. EVERY SINGLE TIME someone says something bioware said, you act like they mean something else.”

Yes, by taking what someone says at face value. Silly me.

“Stop trolling. They said it is valid. Regardless of reveal, IT is valid and true if you accept it as your interpretation. It's just sad people settle for an imagination based ending like the ones we got.”

I wish I had the power to ignore overwhelming amounts of evidence. Life would be a lot easier for me.

“"is ****ty storytelling" The Matrix was Genius, not ****ty.”

Yeah, because the The Matrix didn't reveal that reality was a lie from early on. It's not like it's in the title or anything. Oh, and yeah, all the Matrix movies are were great. Especially that last one. Gotta love that ending.

“You are clearly not intellectual, you cannot truly enjoy story telling.”

That may have been the most hipster thing I've ever heard.

“Seriously you sound like an unintellectual old retard... stop with the pointless points, what would it mean if I was a hipster exactly? That my opinion is invalid?”

That, and if you were a ginger. Gingers and hipsters don't get to argue.

969638-cool story bro super
“Wait so you are going to argue with Bioware? That's all I've heard from you.”

Well hey, it's not like BioWare makes mistakes, right?

“I don't know about story telling? You are the one who ignores the million instances in the narrative that make Indoctrination a HUGE thing. Bioware said they planned on doing indoctrination, they allegedly say it didn't work out. Now they sympathize and support ITers and say it's perfectly valid.”

Someone isn't very good at counting. Or paying attention.

“Leviathan giving us an example of Shepard being forced into his mind and actually believing he is in normal reality, when his surroundings obviously are not normal.”

It's almost as if the Reapers themselves were based on the Leviathans....

Story Time!

“He isn't rapidly indoctrinated the process has taken place years now. IT just says this is the moment they are trying to make the final step of fully converting him. Indoctrination is thinking the bad guys are good, it's brainwashing. So actually yes Kai Leng was a Reaper sympathizer.”

I don't remember reading that in the codex.

“Shepard has killed a reaper, one wrong move and for all they know he could extinct them. He is an anomaly, it's not safer to kill him as they already succeeded that and he pwned them in response”

Yeah! Shepard could kill them all single handedly! It's much safer to try and brainwash him, which has a 66% chance of succeeding, instead of just killing him, which has a 100% chance of success.

But seriously. If he's such a threat (because Shepard can totally wipe out the Reapers single-handedly by himself), why wouldn't they just kill him!?

“Bioware *facepalm and sigh" You know what the majority of us want.......Just... How much clearer can I get? and IT haters get outa here lol you know you would download and play it just out of pure curiosity”

I think you should Google the word majority.

“Bioware you know you want to”

I think BioWare wants to not go bankrupt.

“If you call that bad writing, then you sir are not a good judge of storytelling.”

Yes, and Roger Ebert doesn't know anything about movies.

“IT isn't even exactly like the Matrix. I mentioned it because it ends with Neo waking up, nothing else is seen after he flies away. OR what about Inception, is it a dream or not? Seriously plenty of stories are excellent BECAUSE it's all a dream.”

Except the good ones don't lie to you; it's part of the premise. You know what that is.. right?

ME3 stargazer
“In the final confrontation the Hero will be put to the test, will he prevail or will he side with this abomination? Should he break free from the tentacles of horror, he proves the enemy wrong. He proves they cannot do what they do, that even fire has consequences. That the other forces seek to put out the flame that is the Reapers.”

... What?

“Then once free, the broken connection weakens the Reapers and the galaxy kicks the reapers in every part of their body, ripping them limb from limb.”

... What!?

“You keep saying indoctrination stops at Shepard waking up, it does not. The Legit leaks claim an IT reveal is coming, maybe it is, maybe it isn't.”

You know when a plot twist is the most relevant? Over a year after the game comes out!

“Unless you are not intellectual enough to view it the right way, which in that case dumb***es shouldn't play the game. The matrix is a great example of doing it right, which this game is influenced by the matrix.”

Did you even watch The Matrix!?

“Lets be honest even if you were right about it being ****ty writing, it's less ****ty writing than the ending we got.”

Hey, I can admit when I'm wrong. At one point, I said the ending to Mass Effect 3 couldn't get any worse. Thanks for proving me wrong.

“Reality is the ending we got is open for interpretation according to Bioware. That's not an ending, that's an anti-climax. We got no official ending -_-”

Are you trying to support IT with that statement?

“That's all it took before. Regardless he is by far worth more alive then dead, so your logic doesn't fly here.” — IronicAtheist, when I said the Reapers could easily just shoot Shepard instead.

Apparently, this is a no-fly zone for logic in general.

PraetorianME3 ParticleBeams
“Wait.... so the ending of ME1 was stupid? Could've sworn Indoctrination was the fall of Sovereign ;)”

I think Joker was the fall of Sovereign, actually.

“"The story needs to be complete without DLC" You don't make the rules. Sorry but they own YOU. I thought it'd be obvious when the government... which is supposed to be ruled by the people FYI, in fact rules those people. When the slave is in control of the slavemaster, when the ***** is in control of the playa? They own you. They sell you WATER IN A ****ING BOTTLE. They could feed the world for FREE, yet they throw away dumpsters full of food you didn't pay for.” — IronicAtheist, talking about... water?

I'm going to just walk away slowly now.

“"about our place in the universe" Nope.jpg, this trilogy is ONLY about Shepard and his battle with the Reapers. Indoctrination is their main weapon, it's like saying light sabers aren't a significant part of star wars.” — IronicAtheist, when I tried explaining that indoctrination isn't a major theme.

So the main underlying theme in the Star Wars saga... is light sabres?

Cronos station lt btard kai leng's pinky
“Do you even understand what I'm saying? It leaves the conflict unresolved. It removes the point of player choice. It's even more confusing and has less closure than the original ending. You never leave the conflict unresolved. Ever.”” — The Milkman

That's what I said. This was his response:

“Humanity in real life is young, we haven't figured out the whole morality thing too well because too much moral relativism exists. The logical conclusion is we need to try and find an objective morality. The best way to do that is to use Logic, Reason and Empathy. Using these 3 things, only 1 ME3 ending played out in real life would be the moral one. In real life you have choices, to do good things or bad things. You can still choose the immoral options, but that doesn't mean you win :l”

Thanks for answering my question....

“In the comic books Shepard did arrival, so it is Canon.”

Don't believe everything you read in books, kid.

“Actually the only difference is the connection was forced into breaking by an outside force. Shepard isn't even indoctrinated yet, he doesn't agree with the reapers, so then he has the chance to break the connection himself. Sovereign's shields weakened when he lost control.”


“This is what I get for explaining 1 out of hundreds of ways to solve the conflict problem you mentioned. It wouldn't be unresolved.”

Why are we suddenly OK with having to pay writers extra money just to finish the story they started?

“IT has different ideas of when it even starts... Considering at the top of the hill there is Rebar exactly the same as in the breath scene. Bioware more recently casually claimed it was rebar we see in the breathe scene.”

It looks like rebar. The only conclusion from this we can draw is that everything is a lie.

“Ok except what did bioware claim the boss fight was? A battle of intelligence, that is the general gist of their intentions :l”

Looked more like a gun battle to me.

Citadel final battle - saren suicides
“Oh and there was infinite troops running down the hill inevitably getting killed. Someone claimed water was going uphill. Shepard gets hit a **** load of times with an instant kill beam.”

Kids, don't do drugs.

“That's probably where we agree greatly. They already sold an unfinished product, lets be honest it was FACTUALLY rushed. So you are right, it was indeed unethical but then Bioware should've never signed a contract with the "devil" aka EA.”

So that excuses more bad ethics?

“Reality is Indoc can only work in the narrative and story if it isn't obvious. So stop with the "it was never a main theme". It couldn't come off as such, otherwise it wouldn't work.”

Yeah, themes are stupid. Only amateur writers use those. Real plot twists only work if they make zero sense.

“"BioWare has proven they don't know anything about their own story"

HERPITY DERPITY DERP HERP. <----- That is as legit as what you said.

Seriously, you are saying you know better than bioware. LOLWUT?”

I'm saying a monkey knows better than BioWare. Ever heard of Dragon Age II?

“Actually if IT is true, regardless anyone contributing to the pure genius and beauty of it's existence is awesome. This would be the one time it'd be worth it.”

OK, now you're just creeping me out.

Shepard scared face
“That's exactly my point. If it doesn't fit in with the main theme, it's a jarring red herring that adds nothing to the narrative. What makes it so great? Because you didn't see it coming? I've been sucker punched before. Didn't see it coming. Guess what? It wasn't fun! Here's the part you're missing. What does IT add to the narrative? A cheap surprise by lying to the audience? Confusing them with random nonsensical gibberish? In order for something to have multiple layers, it must have meaning.” — The Milkman

That's what I said. Let's see his response:

“You are apparently a retard. I've talked to fish who were more intellectual than you. Seriously, your the kind of person who watches those videos showing how exactly small we are compared to the universe.... and you don't get inspired, or feel the true power of it's amazement. You might even claim it, but I doubt someone with your lack of insight could be genuine in such a claim” — IronicAtheist, responding to the above YouTube comment.

Well, it's not like a non sequitur is a logical fallacy or anything.

“Yeah I doubt they've contradicted that much... maybe in the last five minutes, or in DA2. But if that was an example of their common ordeal, then they wouldn't still be releasing excellent quality stuff like Omega DLC, etc.”

All that needs to be said is that this comment was made before Omega came out. Denial is one hell of a drug, isn't?

“Oh and why do you even have a blog? You've proven yourself to be quite oblivious.”

And here we are.

“You'd call Mozart's work **** if you were born in his time, that's the kind of person you are. Not saying bioware is equal to Mozart, but to think IT isn't awesome is to not understand it.”

If someone doesn't like something, it's because they don't know enough about it?

“All you are doing is making **** up, when ever I use Bioware's claims and intents, etc you've now taken claim to knowing more than them. That's Christian level stupid.” — IronicAtheist

Careful there. Your statements almost make it sound like you're an ignorant bigot.

“Being intellectual means you see the deeper meaning. It means when you look at a painting for example, you understand the true reason why it's supposed to invoke emotions and inspirations, little alone the specific emotions and inspirations.”

I'm going to just assume that "intellectual" is a synonym for "hipster" now.

“The relevance being. You are apparently incapable of seeing the beauty behind the complexity of this "conflict" you keep demeaning. Your neuron's don't fire off causing enjoyment from knowledge, or from complexity. You probably just have them fire off at explosions, maybe character complexity. That's why you cannot see the beauty of storytelling, because you aren't intellectual.”

All I got out of that is that deep, round characters are apparently shallow. You sir, are a master of story telling.

“What makes a story, is that is touches your deepest emotions, deepest desires and deepest fears, etc. I'm not very poetic so it's hard to express. It's a really old and advanced enemy. How significant we become the moment their flame is extinguished by our water. IT gives a doorway into how that happens.”

This rabbit hole goes very deep.

“Indoctrination is a confrontation that makes us large, and them small. That's the simple way of putting it.

"Fire isn't in conflict" - Catalyst "Neither is water" - The Milky Way population.

Without It the whole series is dead, so yeah sorry if we want to use our "interpretation" rights that bioware has apparently given us -_-”

No seriously kids, don't take drugs.

ME MilkyWayButton 3

Even More Evidence

“Actually never mind.... I realized you are a Reaper Sympathizer. You seriously think they deserve to exist. Most immoral **** ever, you sir are evil.”

I'm running out of sardonic comments to say here.

“It's not a new element. Seriously anyone not thinking Indoc is not a big thing of ANY sort(In which case why is it there? What is it's purpose in the narrative? Why make the hero suffer it's side effects?), is the same kind of person who doesn't think the narrative has heavily opposed 2 of the ending choices since ME1.”

Also, why is Blasto in the narrative? What's his purpose in BioWare's grand design?

“But I mean if there was such thing as an intellectual turn off... multiple pages worth of walls of text is exactly that.”

Reading is an intellectual turn off?

“The whole point of right and wrong is that there is not always more then 1 right answer. Seriously it makes no sense, it creates an ILLUSION of choice. Why pick Destroy if Synthesis is equal? Why choose Control if the other 2 options are exactly the same? They are all 100% equally winning positions right? So why even choose, why not just run towards one at random? It doesn't matter so you might as well.”

I don't think anyone has ever argued that the illusion of choice was a good thing.

“Dream/Hallucination erasing ONLY the ****. The way you guys talk it changes much more than a few minutes.”

Those are a very important few minutes.

“No some undetermined point during priority earth is nullified, SO horrible if a few minutes out of a whole 5 year old trilogy is nullified so Shepard can kick some god ****ed Reaper *** in a way that makes it a great ending.”

I think plenty of Reaper *** is kicked in the literal endings. In one ending, he blows them all up. In another, he keeps them as slaves. You'll never be better than Commander Shepard.

“Stop with the bull**** speculations thing.”

That's what I'm saying!

“Take the Catalyst for example, it's rebellion happened why? Because the leviathans were part of the problem. What is a notable fact about Leviathans? They treat the universe and everything else inside it like it's their ****.”

No... the Catalyst was doing what it was told. I don't think the Leviathans programmed their genocidal AI to "wipe out anyone who is mean".

“IT leaves a hole just like Evolution doesn't say where Planets come from -_-”

Because the Theory of Evolution is a story that needs a resolution.

“What is a Nuke compared to a Reaper?”

A much more efficient killing method.

Virmire-The nuke explodes

But Wait, There's More!

“Indoctrination is in your face. The amount of evidence and lack of counter evidence is staggering, so actually if the overarching theme is Debatable at this point... you "aint doing much better" ;)”

I thought indoctrination is supposed to be subtle?

“"The overarching narrative did not focus" you seem to think it's something it's not. Something about our place in the Galaxy... despite that being a VERY SMALL SIDE THEME LOL.”

You make Stephanie Meyer sound like a good writer.

“"fails to resolve" Evolution fails to resolve the problem of where life came from :l”

And that makes not resolving the conflict OK... how exactly?

“"Life is not black and white." So raping children is not black and white?”

That's what I get for trying to talk about shades of grey.

“"Creationism in not inherently stupid." What part of 100% disproved don't you understand?.......I'm done....... ”

I don't think you understand the meaning of disproved, actually.

“Shepard has one of his dreams in the middle of something, that's not dreaming unless you are narcoleptic and Shepard isn't.”

Dreaming makes you narcoleptic now?

“Infrasound is found in the Reaper growls, the sound from the Conduit Beam, the whispers and Reaper sounds in the game, and during the TIM conversation.”

Which relates to indoctrination... how?

“Oh some ME1 evidence of indoc side effects? When Shepard wakes up after getting knocked out by the beacon, he hears voices and whispering.”

Yeah well, that's to be expected when you touch a Prothean beacon. Y'know, those things they communicated with?

“It's cannon, if you don't play arrival you missed out on important story. Unless you don't think it was important, in which case why the hell does it exist? and how does Leviathan count as canon? You can't say some story DLCs are cannon and some aren't, yet I'm sure you sit there and think the AI's existence is proven by Leviathan.”

Yep. If Shepard wasn't there, it didn't happen. Sounds like legit logic to me.

“Once again your point? IT can't work if it's blunt, it has to be subtle in the first place. It exists purely because fans knew they were supposed to speculate, and instead of going on absolutely nothing they looked into the lore, story, etc to take in the facts and see if they derive a general pattern. IT is one of the patterns theorized so far, there is other ones too aside from IT, It just happens to make a lot of sense so a few other theories are also based on the same concept as IT.”

So much for appealing to newcomers. Also, I thought indoctrination was "in your face"?

“"there is no resolution, thus, an even worse ending." As much as stealing candy is as immoral as genocide. The literal endings are not worse than no resolution, the current endings from a literalist POV are worse than if Justin Bieber's vocal cords were made of literal ****... I mean his lyrics are just the worst kind of horrible, could you imagine if his vocal cords were literally made out of ****? Now multiply that by a trillion and you got the literal endings.”

Add Rebecca Black's "discography" to that, and you get the indoctrination theory.

“You see this? My appeal to authority here would only be a fallacy, and would only be illogical, if Bioware weren't experts on their own game. But to say their not is bull****, they ****ing made it.”

First off, you need to Google "appeal to authority". Second, you should play Dragon Age II.

“You are a ****ing retard, you say ITers grasp at straws but what do you call saying YOU know better then the ones who made the game?”

I call it paying attention.

“IT is not an ending, yet you say it doesn't solve the conflict. This is a RED HERRING. You keep mentioning Red Herrings, but then you do the same ****ing thing you retarded hypocrite.”

No, it's not an ending. It just happens to replace the last ten minutes of the story and removes the part of the story that resolves the conflict. It's totally not an ending though.

“Replacing the ending would be to remove the current one completely, and then replace it with a different one. The IT doesn't remove the current ending, it still happens within Shepard's mind. So it's not replacing and ergo that means it isn't an ending. The IT was thought up to solve all the problems with the current ending, using the facts from the lore and story.”

That's not how logic works.

“You talk narrative, a literal narrative is EVERYTHING wrong with the current ending. It shatters the entire trilogy with it's resolution to the conflict. IMO Shattering the entire trilogy is worse than no resolution.”

So your saying that, after three games spanning a five year development period, not resolving the trilogy's central conflict wouldn't shatter the entire trilogy?

Alpha Relay being destroyed
“You want to talk narrative? This AI is taking the form of Innocence and Guilt and could only be doing so to pull on your emotional and moral strings, to mess with your head. "Here is 3 choices, 1 is the one you want... and the other 2 are what TIM and Saren wanted... You should pick the other 2 because their morally superior" - Starbrat, aka ALL Reapers.”

Yeah! Player choice is stupid!

“"That's not hard to understand." It's not that i don't understand it, It's that I'd rather have no ending than I would one as ****ed up as the ending we got. I mean you can understand that pain can get so bad, that death is preferable right? So an ending can be so bad... like ME3's ending mind you... that it probably should just not exist.”

I am certainly contemplating suicide now that I know there is no hope left for the human race.

“"At this point, Shepard will likely go up to the Citadel... and do the same exact thing they did in their dream"... Why? Like that's the only possible ending? I already thought of one on the spot, it was sorta flawed which is expected from something on the spot. There is plenty of ways for it to go down.”

There are two ways it can go down. Shepard activated the Crucible... or everyone dies. The Reapers can't be beaten conventionally. Didn't you pay attention to the story and lore? :P

“"It fails because a poorly resolved conflict is ALWAYS better than an unresolved one." Just like pain is always preferable over death? I guess people who beg for mercy have never actually existed?”

You suck at analogies.

Virmire Ashley Killing Wrex
“Also money for digital media should be based on the content, especially how long that content lasts. Ending DLC would expand the game enough to warrant extra cost. If you took the current ending out of ME3 and left it literally endingless, you still paid a fair amount.”

Paying the same high albeit inflated amount for an unfinished product is considered "fair" to you!?

“"and that's a cardinal sin of game development." And that's not an argument.... it's like if Murder happens, then you tell the murderer that murder is wrong. Does that prevent all murder or stop it? Even more so maybe the victim was a terrorist or some ***hole, so it's not AS bad as say murdering a child.”

Really, you're not good at this whole "analogies" thing.

“Is selling the ending in DLC immoral? Yes, buy it can be justified because they were rushed and the IT with resolution would be the perfect ending and would actually be art..”

Immorality can be justified by saying their product was rushed and poorly developed? I do believe you epitomise everything that is wrong with this industry.

“Like I said Digital Media depends on the content's quality... an IT DLC would be worth every penny, had they included it they still would deserve extra money on the price.”

Yes, all hail the glorious might of the IT! It is so beautiful to behold, it totally justifies paying extra money!

You know what? From here on out, I think developers should charge extra money for their games if they think it's brilliant. That's flawless logic really!

“I mean technically they couldn't release it at all otherwise, and it costs time and money to do a work around. Seems to justify it IMO”

The fact that its a fundamentally broken idea justifies paying for an ending?

“Player choice has only been an illusion in this series anyways, moral ambiguity doesn't exist. In fact it'd be so worth it on it's own just for it to punish people for being stupid. Stupidity really does need to be painful, and only idiots fall for the candy van trick.”

I don't even want to justify that with a witty retort.

“It's mostly unjustified if it's done for greed, this time I am saying it's for saving that game's existence in the first place. Ignoring Fallout 3 DLC...”

Oh, OK you guys. Their heart is in the right place. It's totally fair to make us pay to fix an unfinished job. That's not at all like greed.

“My response to this comment: Obviously you've never played the Fallout Ending DLC.”

Did you even play Fallout 3?

“The original ending already resolved the conflict." There was no central conflict to Fallout 3, there was a story but there was no central conflict. It was a true RPG where you could be good, or evil and the story continued in DLC.”

Guess not.

Thought IT was Over? Think Again!

“Oh and what's so profound about It?” — The Milkman

That's what I said. Let's see what our friend thinks is so "profound" about the IT:

“The Reapers think their morally and intellectually superior, because we can't comprehend them. Reality is Evil can reach a level that is comprehensible to us, does that somehow mean Evil is superior to our good? That's not how things work.” — IronicAtheist, replying to The Milkman

I guess profound and gibberish are interchangeable now.

“Right and Wrong doesn't exist, is that what you tell your rape victims? You really hated my rape analogy, but if there is not Right or Wrong then how can you call Rape wrong? What is your basis? The secrets of the universe? LOL”

Yes, there is no moral ambiguity in the entire universe. Indeed, everything is simply black and white. Why? Because rape exists.

“Actually it changed the current ending by allowing you to live. That's not different from making Shepard wake up and you go on to do something about the Reaper threat. Instead of getting fed the solution from the Reapers themselves which makes no sense at all.”

Actually, in the ending I got, Shepard survived. I kind of prefer having three options over one linear ending path.

“It's ironic, they think they are superior... and so to mind rape them is to show just how "superior" they are. But hey you think it's somehow worse than eating a R/G/B/Y Candy from the Reapers themselves.”

Okay, first off, you should really look up the meaning of "irony". Second, can we stop talking about rape and candy?

“Stop with the "sensationalist' bull****. If it's subjective then you can't force it on people, right? So you can't prevent rape, right?”

Did you really just argue that you can't force a subjective idea on people? Someone didn't pay attention in social studies.....

Udina facepalm
“And it's the most important message, if it was overused we wouldn't live in a world where real villains exist... but heroes don't. I mean **** we literally live in a world run by villains.”

So the moral of the story is... something about heroes? Yeah, that's not overused at all....

“Also hey BTW: Right, wrong, wrong, wrong does not mean there is no player choice. Being Evil is a choice in real life, so to change it to: Right, Evil, Evil, Evil is in fact lots of player choice.”

Yep. Choosing between good and evil isn't shallow storytelling at all.

“Seriously you are just being a nonsensical retard now, might as well have a president who believes he is an alien who is allowed to butt rape YOU specifically.”

Well, plenty of people do believe our president is an alien. And he does sort of endorse gay rights so....

Yeah, I know. That joke was bad and I should feel bad.

IT Gets Worse

“No HOW you beat him is ironic... The Reapers think their intellectual superiority means that can control whoever they want with Indoctrination. So beating the very thing that gives them control is ironic because they can't control you.”

So let me get this straight. The villains think they're better then the hero and that they're going to win. But in the end... the hero wins. Yep. That sounds like every story ever written.

“So if the AI is in Harbinger, and if harbinger is attempting indoc then this attempt makes more sense, considering the confrontation with the AI itself. What if breaking from the Indoc messed with the AI somehow messing with all reaper's Shields? It make some sense.”

Nothing has ever been more worthy of a Saren Facepalm.

Benezia Saren Aboard Sovereign Post EdenPrime
“How can one justify the Reaper's existence? Using a gun is like trying to justify that gun's existence and everything that went into making it real.”

Well in 'murica, we use guns not just because we think they're totally rad, but also because we want to protect ourselves. Also, what's wrong with gun manufacturing exactly? What's wrong with justifying that industry's existence?

“However a gun is just made from metal... however a Reaper is made from you and your children times something billions.”

Sensationalism is fun, isn't it?

“How can you say selling an unfinished product is unjustifiable.... but using the Reapers isn't? LOL Hypocrite.”

Someone needs to take a step back and differentiate reality from fiction.

“If you use something, you justify what it is. Do you think we can justify a horror like the reapers when we can't justify selling unfinished products? There is nothing wrong with the comparison, the difference is the Reaper thing is WAY more severe, meaning you should think they are WAY more unjustifiable than the product thing.”

No, the difference is that one is an unethical business practice, and the other involves the fate of a fictional universe.

“It does make sense, nobody according to lore has ever resisted indoctrination... it's always been about borrowed time. But then again nobody but Shepard allegedly has ever been to the location you talk to the AI in. Which from an IT viewpoint could mean something like Harbinger himself trying to control Shepard, or maybe nobody normally does get their choice and the reapers DO normally remove your option. However Shepard's conviction could be so strong that nobodies' willpower gets close.”

When did indoctrination become a pop quiz in your mind?

“"Sounds like a deus ex machina to me." Could've sworn people like that game.”

I've never heard of any game called "Deus Ex Machina" before. What are you talking about?

“Because by using them... you justify what happened to the people who were made into the Reapers.”

No, I'm just not going to let sentiment get in the way of progress.

“Also the point of Roleplay is to treat it as "what if" you were actually in that world. So if this is how you fell if such a thing happened in the real world, then you are pretty ****ed up if you can't see how those people being melted into Reapers is unacceptable.”

"what if" pretty much sums up the entire theory.

“The point I made was that it was out of the blue, it was a new sudden solution. This was the end of a game, you don't introduce anything new here ;)”

I don't even know any more.

“"then those people don't have to die for nothing." No you sully their names by treating them like tools, like the monsters that did it to them wanted.”

Well, they're dead so....

Kelly Processed

The Truth

“In Me2 ever stood still and looked at his animations? How he creepily looks around paranoid like "WOAH, What was that?" Despite nothing happening? Why the hell was he doing that? ”

Yes, someone is certainly paranoid.....

“If you stand still, most games have an animation that plays... like maybe the Character will look at their watch or scratch their head randomly. If you stand still in ME2 Shepard randomly looks around cautiously no matter where you are like "What the hell!?"... and he repeats this every 10 seconds or so like a maniac or a crackhead.”

Somehow I doubt BioWare thinks that far ahead. Especially since they were working with this thing called Dark Energy....

“At the ending of ME3 after years of exposure Harbinger/the AI attempts the final step of indoctrination, which is truly believing they are good and anyone opposing them is bad.”

Indoctrination has steps now? What is this, Alcoholics Anonymous?

“You know the breath scene? It's rebar. furthermore the exact rubble pile and rebar bent the same way is at the top of the hill.”

Well, you heard it here first. This visual comparison is undeniable proof... of something.

“Yes they were, we know Dreams are a side effect. We know Shepard is not suffering from PTSD, we know that the dreams have a meaning to them... which is that his path is wrong, etc.”

Dreams are a side effect of sleeping. Shepard's in particular... well, it's not like Commander Shepard has any guilt, stress, or trauma to deal with, right?

“Moments after you are running down the hill... infinite soldiers are running towards the Reaper beam, you get hit like 3 times or so directly by this beam that you are watching the infinite soldiers getting melted in milliseconds.”

I'll have whatever you're on.

ME3 Harbinger Conduit
“Nah, but you asked for weird behavior, it seems strange he stops doing that in ME3.... like he's apparently more accepting of the Cerberus Spies?”

When you're studying idle animations, you know you're grasping at straws.

Wait, wait... I thought you said they changed the script because of the leak? Now you're saying they were planning it all along?

“Actually it mostly is, it's like more than 90% his idle animations. It counts as weird behavior, peeps asked for it so aside from passing out, and seeming like he's hallucinating with some things is pretty weird.”


“Your defense is plot armor, considering that doesn't exist and you made it up... they are at least feeling it's effect.”

I made up plot armour?

“All the evidence is on the Bioware forums. Which is also why you are a retard in saying it's not in the narrative, etc. It is, it is perfectly in the narrative, you go as far to say the narrative is some retarded bull**** like our place in the galaxy when it isn't.”

Ah, BSN. Always a reliable source of information.

“Some math wiz did the math on how powerful that second explosion was in the Destroy ending, I have the whole equation in a notepad file. The interesting answer to the force is equal to: "4934063 Hiroshima Bombs. *But magic forcefields* --- Sounds legit."- quote from the math wiz, cause this is just too good LOL”

Well, it's a good thing this is real life, and not science fiction or anything.

“You know technically you have less evidence for a literal view than there is evidence for IT.... Shepard can't survive 3 direct hits from a reaper beam, his dreams are proved to be indoc side effects, the kid is formed from your memories... and a recent DLC makes a "mind world" completely 10000% valid. The breath scene takes place on earth, Shepard can't survive that many nukes, etc.”

I think my IQ just dropped.

“Except no plot armor is exhibited anywhere...”

Well, I'd say the fact that Shepard is still breathing after three games counts as plot armour.

“Yes it is, the Citadel has Lore based info on how much it weighs and how large it is. That's enough to calculate the force of the explosion regardless of tech.”

I didn't see any such measurements in the codex. Also, I didn't see an entry about the Crucible either....

“The IT has no evidence against it, if there was Milkman wouldn't have to play dirty twist and lie tactics like "It doesn't solve the conflict"... just like Evolution isn't the Big Bang HERP DERP When he accepts this, he says it requires DLC which would be immoral as if that somehow makes it impossible.”

I don't want to live on this planet any more.

The Conclusion


Well, based on the evidence, the answer is pretty obvious. It's hard to deny these rock solid facts, like the piles of dead bodies in the middle of a war zone, the trees in the middle of London, and of course, the greatest proof of all, Shepard's idle animations in Mass Effect 2. How can one deny how plausible this is?

But what makes the Indoctrination Theory so great you ask? Well, it removes stupid things that no one liked anyway, like player choice and moral ambiguity. If that wasn't enough to win you over, you'll also be glad to know that it leaves the conflict unresolved, giving you 100% less closure! And the best part? You get to pay extra for the real ending to a $60 game you bought nine months ago! This game is so relevant, you could have created a human during the time it came out and now. Who wouldn't want to wait a year for a plot twist? It's pure brilliance and artistic genius. God, this theory is just so beautiful and majestic. It's like a full-on double rainbow or something.

What's your take on the theory?

The poll was created at 02:34 on December 4, 2012, and so far 71 people voted.

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