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The article mentions that the death of Saren was responsible for the loss of Sovereigns shields. However, isn't more reasonable to assume that the loss of the shields are the result of the Alliances fleet massive bombardment? Tough the loss of shield happens right after Shepards team defeats Saren, this could merely be a cinematic choice.

---

The cutscene reveals everyone had widthdrawn from the battle, except the Normandy, and possibly a few other ships, because of the devastation that Sovereign could unleash, and the fact that it's shields were impenetrable.

Once the Normandy detected the shields had gone down, the bombardment recommenced, destroying Sovereign.

It could be cinematic or a coincidence, but it's very timely if so. Besides, after Saren is defeated, you can see that 'red lightning' flicker all over Sovereign and then disappear, at which point Joker says the shields are down, so the assumption was that the two were connected. --Tullis 06:45, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
Okay, so I played the end again. The alliance fleet does not retreat. There are some who suggest that they should retreat, but admiral Hackett commands them to stay. However, it does seems that this not merely the kinetic barries that is exshausted. But, since we can't be sure about it with the aviable information, I have allowed myself to change the wording to "This final death seems to have stripped Sovereign of its shields" to better reflect that we can't be sure. A minor question though. As I played the ending, I was under the impression that it was the alliance fleet that took sovereign down, since the citadel fleet was occupied by the geth assault. Have I missed the point? (Jakob Laursen 09:16, 7 June 2008 (UTC))
I could be wrong but didn't the initial assault by Sovereign and the geth destroy most of the Citadel forces? If I remember it correctly, Sovereign shows up with the geth, destroying a lot of ships when approaching the Citadel. Later Normandy shows up with the alliance fleet and as we learn from the story the Citadel forces seem to have a hard time defending themselves since Normandy has to step up and save the Council. In short, I believe it was mostly alliance warships that destroyed Sovereign. SentientMachine 10:51, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

um hi. The shields don't lower after they kill Saren. They kill Saren way before that. Saren is DEAD by the time of the final fight. The thing you're fighting is Sovereign using the implants in Saren's body as an avatar, I thought that should be obvious...apparently not. I thought that the avatar was taking up so much of Sovereign's power that when it was destroyed, its mental connection to the mechanism operating the shields was also destroyed...but then I realized something as old and wise as Sovereign wouldn't make such a stupid decision. It's more likely that it was a cinematic choice that resulted in the bombardment finally breaking the shields simultaneously with the avatar being destroyed. However, why the cables detach and why Sovereign falls like there's gravity is beyond me. 75.41.32.173 03:25, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

Right, sorry. By 'death of Saren' I think we were all referring to the death of the avatar. As for the 'mental connection', I don't know if that would have been a 'stupid' decision on Sovereign's part, maybe a desperate one. Bear in mind that Saren was Sovereign's only remaining agent on the ground who stood a chance against Shepard. Once Shepard uploaded the data file, Sovereign lost control of the Citadel and Saren was its only chance to restore Sovereign's control, then allow Sovereign to free its entire race and destroy the Citadel Fleet that was bombarding it. Sovereign either had to regain control of the station any way possible, fast, or face its own destruction and the ruin of centuries of planning. --Tullis 06:51, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
Hmm... Sovereign needed to regain control, but the arms was already being opened when the Alliance fleet came trough the mass relays. Shepard had the choice to unlock the mass relay network and it seemed that the fleet would jump right after. So Soverreign would have noticed the lost cause, since it now faced an entire fleet bent on destroying it. It might be that it simply revied Saren in order to take Shepard down with itself. Shepard does pose the greatest threat to the reapers, since Shepard has warned the galaxy, knows their objective and, a reasonable assumption from the Reaper ship, would continue to find a way to stop them.(Jakob Laursen 12:12, 1 July 2008 (UTC))

Added a citation to the article that gives direct reference in the book. :) --Digital Holocaust 12:35, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

I think we should change it from "if you have enough Charm/Intimidate points" in reference to Saren killing himself, to "a Paragon or Renegade option may result in... if the player has enough Charm/Intimidate points". I played Mass Effect as morally ambiguous, and the option in the middle of the tree before one gets the option to charm/intimidate is "Let's end this".

I don't want it to appear that the only reason a fight ensues is if the player is unskilled


I was under the impression that Sovereign transfered itself into Saren's corpse to fight Shepard and then when it was defeated it died and the ship was merely a shell from that point and thus the shields fell.

Saren's upgrades Edit

Given that Saren has a geth arm the first time we see him on Eden Prime, it's likely he was indeed "upgraded" early, but he doesn't seem to consider the fact he has a freaking synthetic arm to be an upgrade when talking to Shepard on the Citadel. He's likely referring to his new abilities when we fight him there as being 'upgrades', but it seems odd that someone who's already obviously been cybernetic the whole time (including the time he was fought and defeated) suddenly goes "oh, by the way, I became a cyborg since we last met". Bit mysterious. --Tullis 18:36, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

It is a bit of a design flaw I think. I always wondered that as well to be honest.

Saren being a biotic Edit

I think it is worth mentioning that there is absolutely no mention of Saren being a biotic or using any biotic abilities before the storyline of the game. In fact, we never see any indication of him being a biotic until he starts bombarding your party with biotic attacks during the final battle on Virmire. In Mass Effect: Revelation he is also reluctant to follow Skarr after the fight in Grissom's house, remarking that only a fool would go after a Krogan biotic alone. While on Virmire he faces off against an elite striketeam consisting of multiple powerful biotics (including a krogan biotic if you bring Wrex) all on his own. Sondor 20:40, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

All these facts have lead my to believe that he was in fact never a biotic until he received the cybernetic implants from Sovereign. 80.101.161.195 20:12, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

Sure, stick a mention under 'Trivia'. --Tullis 21:08, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

I also reached that conclusion. I agree it should go in Trivia. This is completely unrelated, but I think the final fight is too easy. Even on the hardest difficulty, saren is a cakewalk and his robot/implant form is beaten just by dodging missiles and shooting.Cheeseslayersmu 00:47, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, not to mention if you are a Bastion subtype of Adept or Sentinel, -assuming you have the Stasis Mastery- you can choose to put Saren in Stasis while you pound the begeezes out of him, even on Insanity difficulty. Honestly, I prefer to think that the initial parameters of Saren's creation in the art and story for Mass Effect established him as a cyborg. In my opinion, the most likely scenario is that they were going to have Saren be a partially cybernetic character throughout the story of the game, only deciding later to have the 'implantation' event take place after his confrontation with Shepard on Virmire. That late in the game -pardon the pun-, it may have been too late to alter the existing model for Saren pre-Ilos to look non-cybernetic (entirely organic). I agree that he is not a latent biotic; like it is said above, there is no mention of him using or possessing such ability in Mass Effect: Revelation. Keep in mind that Drew Karpyshyn wrote the story of both novels AND the game, meaning any difference between the two would be an absolute breach of continuity. Being not a latent biotic, we can only assume that the cybernetic implants give him biotic ability, which would only serve to prove my hypothesis. --Incrognito 21:05, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
Actually, doesn't he ONLY use biotics during that one attack when he first appears on Virmire? The next time he just throws a grenade at you, when surely using Throw would have been much more natural to a military biotic. I don't think he uses biotics during the battle in the Chambers either, but I could be wrong.
I believe it was a dramatic issue. They needed to chase Shepard off so they could have that conversation, but it needed to be something powerful enough so that Shepard -- who's just shot [her] way through an entire base -- couldn't just shoot Saren where he stood. Biotics allowed Saren to drive Shepard off, then throw up a barrier so he could monologue for a bit. It's just odd that it never came up, before or since. :) --Tullis 21:19, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

He couldn't have gotten biotic powers once the geth arm was grafted onto him, as the geth have no biotic powers. If you read one of the codex entries related to Turians, I believe it says that Turian biotics are rare, but do exist. Using that information, its very possible that Saren had unique biotic powers even before the game began. Keep in mind that Mass Effect: Revelation was created around the same time as the first game, but I think the writer was attempting not to spoil too much of his (Saren's) character. H-Man Havoc 12:48, January 24, 2010 (UTC)

Wake up. Doesn't Saren lash out with Biotics in that early game cutscene? The one where he's raging at everything in sight except Matriarch Benezia, whose presence then calms him down? I think it's just after the Council kicks him out of the Spectres. (I agree with Tullis here, didn't realize he's already basically said the same thing when i first wrote this) Personally, I think it's just a drama cock-up. Saren uses Biotics when its dramatically convenient, but he was probably never meant to have them. Clearly the storywriter and the guy writing the cutscenes were two different people who didn't know each other. Does Saren use Biotics at any point in action gameplay? Not cutscenes or conversations? If he doesn't it just proves my point.123.2.14.58 12:01, July 26, 2010 (UTC)

And watch your language, we do have guidelines for behavior here which covers being rude to other users and using crude or inappropiate languarge like "cock-up". Second Tullis is a woman if you had checked her user page before commenting. This conversation was discussing why Saren didn't have biotic powers before ME becuase he didn't show them in Mass Effect: Revelation, not if he has biotic powers in ME. We don't know why Saren shows biotic powers at some points and at others doesn't. Maybe it has something to do with turians mistrusting biotics in their society, much like their politicians. So maybe he only used biotics when he absolutly needed to, or when it was convinent, but either way he does have them. Lancer1289 15:52, July 26, 2010 (UTC)

Query Regarding Infobox Edit

This article seems committed to avoiding spoilers prior to the "spoilers" tag, yet the infobox located above the tag describes Saren as "Rogue Spectre and leader of the geth". Perhaps this could be solved by placing two infoboxes in the article, one describing Saren "before the betrayal" and the other "after the betrayal". As it is, however, the spoiler is rather blatant.Heliossoileh 13:06, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

*looks* I'd rather not have two infoboxes. Let's take the spoiler info out. And I'm guessing that also means Benezia's infobox needs a cleanout. --Tullis 13:08, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

Suicide Edit

"If Shepard's Charm / Intimidate skills are high enough, the commander can convince Saren that, indoctrinated or not, he still has a way to stop Sovereign. Saren commits suicide by shooting himself in the head, to prevent himself from opening the Citadel relay, but not before whispering, "Goodbye, Shepard. Thank you."

He puts the gun to his neck, not his head: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bt-hPpHVT6g 2:30 mark. SkullandBonesMember

But if I'm not mistaken, he fires at an upward angle, resulting in the round passing through his head (it looked like he was trying to take out the brain), so it's still valid, seeing as the selected passage is about where he shoots himself, not where he places the gun. SpartHawg948 20:58, December 13, 2009 (UTC)
Just perused the video, and yes, he definitely does shoot himself in the head, just as the article states, as you demonstrated with the quote! SpartHawg948 21:01, December 13, 2009 (UTC)

Saren's nameEdit

Was it likely that Saren was named after Sauron, otherwise known as the primary antagonist of the Lord of the Rings Trilogy? H-Man Havoc 12:51, January 24, 2010 (UTC)

Possibly. You can put that in the trivia if you want to The Yoshiman 97 22:39, February 11, 2010 (UTC)

He can? Gosh-golly gee whiz Yoshiman, that's great! Too bad it runs counter to the site's Trivia policy concerning this sort of stuff. So no, please don't put it in the trivia section. Thanks, SpartHawg948 23:11, February 11, 2010 (UTC)

sarens name Edit

Sarens name comes from the Danish name Soren. Its on his page. Sauron? please....

It can also come from 'Suzuki' or 'Sbarro', but unless there is any confirmation, or a relation that makes any kind of sense - it should not be included in the trivia. --silverstrike 23:39, February 18, 2010 (UTC)

Left hand or right hand? Edit

Isn't the picture in contradiction to the statement in the article? The article cites that it is the left arm that is the grafted geth arm. The picture shows that it is the right hand. Maybe the scan process has flipped the picture. As I don't have the original book, please give some confirmation on this.

And sorry for messing up with the "page_talk: Saren_Arterius" thing. Ignorance on my part. Braveangel 04:36, May 2, 2010 (UTC)

Weird LevelingEdit

Weird thing happened when I fought Saren on the Citadel (not enough Charm). The fight went according to plan, but then after I killed him I went to my inventory. I had received three Mk. II-III items. This was when I was in the high 40s and used to getting Mk. VII-VIII. Any reason for this to happen? --DKong 15:15, June 17, 2010 (UTC)

The loot Saren drops is fixed instead of picked from a leveled-pool. It is odd that he is the only enemy in the game with this behavior, especially one at the very end dropping such low-leveled items. —ArmeniusLOD 16:31, June 17, 2010 (UTC)
That's really weird. Should a note be made in the Trivia section of the page? --DKong 16:48, June 17, 2010 (UTC)

Saren's fringes Edit

Notice how Saren and no other Turian, Mass Effect 1 or 2 have those long fringes that he has on the sides of his head? Whats that about? Is it supposed to be some sort of evil Turian mustache?

I just figured it was an age thing. Remember, Saren is kinda old. He's only two years younger than Anderson, who comments on his old age in ME2. After all, many other turians (remember, small t) have the 'fringes', and even highlight them with face paint/markings (check out Executor Pallin, for example), just not as long, so I kinda put that two and two together, and came up with my own version of four. May or may not be right, but it makes some semblance of sense, to me at least. SpartHawg948 07:20, June 20, 2010 (UTC)

Mass Effect: Evolution Edit

One of Joe Quinones alternate covers confirms that Saren will be in it [1] --Darth Something 15:48, December 24, 2010 (UTC)

Yeah that could just be a cover. I guess we'll just have to wait and see until Issue #2 is released so say for certain. Lancer1289 16:52, December 24, 2010 (UTC)

We could add a picture of Saren in this comic to have an idea of how he looked when he was younger. --DeldiRe 11:11, December 18, 2012 (UTC)

Mass Effect 3 Edit

Am I only one who would like to see Saren in Mass Effect 3--Th3r3ap3r 18:00, June 24, 2011 (UTC)

Comments like this belong in a forum or in a blog post, not on a talk page as this isn't what talk pages are for. Lancer1289 18:03, June 24, 2011 (UTC)

Name Relationship Edit

I'm REALLY not trying to start an argument which is why I thought I'd ask here first. I've been doing some searching and most turian names seem to have a rough Latin root or theme, i.e. Garrus, Nihlus, Vyrnnus, etc. Is it relevant enough to mention that Saren is the only named turian, that I've noticed, without a Latin based or rooted name?

In my opinion, no. To begin with, it would be original research on your part and therefore subjective and unreliable. That alone will prevent it from being added to the page. But even if a BioWare dev backed you up, I'd still have to oppose including it because I think it lacks any real significance. Saren's name allegedly not having a Latin root is far less noteworthy than the existing trivia items we have regarding the character. -- Commdor (Talk) 01:29, August 15, 2011 (UTC)
Fair enough, I didn't really look at it that way, but that makes sense. -- Scuba.steve.esq 01:43, August 15, 2011 (UTC)
I was just watching the history channel and they brought up that a nerve-impairing chemical called serin was used for experiments in the 1950s-1980s - and I was thinking hey I remember that name from mass effect. I looked it up and it was used experimentally as a mind-control drug causing people to obediently follow orders and have no memory of performing the action. Because of this and the name similarity I think this is the primary root of Saren's name. Dungeonscaper 16:09, January 4, 2012 (UTC)
So where is your proof that it is? The name releation isn't close and because of that, you need much more evidence to support this claim. Lancer1289 17:53, January 4, 2012 (UTC)
I think the relationship is close; They sound very similar and the names differ by 1 letter - a closer relationship than the other guy suggesting Sauron was the possible origin. Here is evidence supporting what I said about the substance: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NUW-frxo2X4&feature=share http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarin http://www.copvcia.com/free/pandora/POW.html Saren was mind controlled by the reapers & killed loads of people so is similar in name and function to the chemical sarin. Let me know what you think -- 122.109.107.11 04:07, January 5, 2012 (UTC)
Names sounding alike is no different than names being spelled alike. We need solid evidence, and the only evidence that will do in this case is devconfirmation. What we have no is a personal opinion and a stretch at best. You are trying to compare a gas and a living person, therefore, devconfirmation is just about the only thing that wil do. Lancer1289 04:10, January 5, 2012 (UTC)
I am attributing characteristics of a substance to characteristics of a person. We are talking about a NAME here, it's not literal. You can name your dog sparky because it runs around a lot or give someone a nickname like monkeyman because they have long arms. Dungeonscaper 04:15, January 5, 2012 (UTC)
Sarin (not serin) is a nerve gas. It doesn't have anything to do with controlling people, it's just fatal. It kills you, and quickly. And your dates are off - it was discovered by Nazi Germany in 1938.

CombatEdit

Why does Saren, unlike almost every other NPC, not have a section explaining his powers, health, and weapon usage like a normal enemy?

Probably for two reasons. One, he's a very major character in ME and this might have to be handled differently. I've been having some thoughts on this and I'll post them much later today. Second reason, no one really got around to it. Lancer1289 14:30, October 16, 2011 (UTC)

Thank you. But its the next day and they are still not there. Are you still getting around to it? It would be very nice.

Did it ever occur to you that I have other, more important, things to do? I can't be here 24/7 as I have school work and other things that I have to do. I can’t be at my computer every second of every day. Even if I had gotten around to it yesterday, which I couldn't as I got tied up doing other things, they probably wouldn't end up in the article for at least a week anyway. I can't even begin to get around to it tonight so it looks like the idea on this will have to wait until tomorrow. Either way, I still have to sort a few things out and these things take time to begin with. Things like this never go though in a day. Things take time and posting messages every day will not make them go any faster. Lancer1289 02:53, October 18, 2011 (UTC)

Sorry if I offended you, I just asked because you said you would post something later the day and you never did.

Even then, it wouldn't be posted here but in the forums. Lancer1289 13:58, October 18, 2011 (UTC)
Little touchy there?--144.96.212.163 21:16, October 18, 2011 (UTC)
If you can't contribute positivly to a conversation, then don't comment at all. Lancer1289 21:28, October 18, 2011 (UTC)
Definitely touchy. Just trying to point out that you came down unusually and unnecessarily hard on that poor editor just trying to get a little clarification. You exploded so effectively, the guy actually apologized for asking a simple question.--144.96.212.163 23:24, October 18, 2011 (UTC)
Please do not drag threads off topic, or further off topic than they already are. I again state that if you cannot contribute positively to a discussion, or you insist on dragging it off topic, then don't comment. There are better places for your comments as this place isn’t it. Either stay on topic, or don’t comment. It’s that simple. This will be last comment on this matter. Lancer1289 23:30, October 18, 2011 (UTC)

Still no progress on this?

I'll get started. Abilities we KNOW he has:
As far as I can tell he doesn't use any weapons in-game, but in cutscenes we see him with a pistol on most occasions and a Geth Pulse Rifle at the end of the game. The Avatar has several Tech attacks that regular Saren didn't. Correct anything that is incorrect, just getting things off to a rough start. --DC Ambrose (talk) 02:21, May 27, 2013 (UTC)

Combat (again) Edit

Speaking of combat, should Husk Saren get his own page since he's an entirely different enemy as far as the game is concerned?

Mass Effect 3 EndingEdit

Should it be noted that while he doesnt make an appearance like anderson or TIM, the synthesis ending is what saren had wanted, like how tim wanted to contol. Noteworthy?

BeoW0lfe 12:34, April 17, 2012 (UTC)

Notworthy how exactly? Lancer1289 15:07, April 17, 2012 (UTC)
not sure how, but his obective of "the stregnths of both, and the weaknesses of neither" sounds strikingly similar to the synthesis end. Unsure of how/if this could be important. BeoW0lfe 16:43, April 18, 2012 (UTC)
And now relevance? Lancer1289 16:45, April 18, 2012 (UTC)
I imagine the only reason this is being brought up at all is the Where Is My Choice Propaganda Poster[2] that's going around. However Lancer is right, it's not relevant or important; the game doesn't mention Saren, so the wiki shouldn't. Mentioning Saren puts a very subjective (negative) spin on the option that the game just doesn't do. The wiki needs to be neutral, so this should not be noted in the article. Veedrock 07:23, April 19, 2012 (UTC)
Interesting. I did not know about that. Nice poster though. Lancer1289 16:51, April 19, 2012 (UTC)

Adversary Box Edit

Shouldn't Saren have his own Adversary Box for when you fight him on his platform, and when he transform's at the end of Mass Effect?

actually an issue since time immemorial. one is the lack of space for two adversary boxes, the other is separation of lore from gameplay.
current practice (as how ME3 named adversaries are written) is to just shove an adversarybox with the whole gamut of combat tactics right there and then. there's no clear consensus on how to properly lay out combat data for "unique"/lore enemies across all three games, now is probably as good a time as any to start.
this, however, is a sort of discussion best continued on the project pages as it goes far beyond the scope of this page. T̴̴͕̲̞̳̖̼̱͒͛̎͒ͫ̃ͧeͩ̈̽̈҉͓̝̰̼̦̫̤̀͠m̫̪̪̯̻͎̫̅̇̓̇͌̚p̸̙̝̓̓͌ͨ͆ͣͥ̂̕o͒̽͐̽͏̞̬̻͕͔͕͚̰͍͠͞ṙ̢̞͚͈̹̰ͨ̓ͭ̈́̌ạ̢̧̪̹̺̺̣̹̲͂͆̏ͪͨ͒ͭř̹͈͜͠y̷͍̻̜̹̼̾̽̈́e̵̹̼̟̦͚͐̈́͌͘d͉̲̣̻͉̱͗̅ḭ̷̻̆͋̆̓̔͝t̨͍̦̫̗͂̅̍̋̆ͩ͝ộ̫̟̬̳̝̲̾ͫ̒̿ͮ̑̚rͯ̎ͨͭ̄̿̽͛҉̠̫̱̠̘̘̲́ͅ7̩̻ͤͩͨ͝͡8̜̣̙͇̻ͨ͛͛̆͒̆̽̒͐͜͡ ͥ̍̉̃̇ͥ̓ͨ͏̕҉̥̹͓̗̤̠̖̤ (talk) 16:58, July 27, 2013 (UTC)
And I'll throw in that I'd be happy to participate in such a discussion/project if someone gets it started. Just so it's known there's not merely apathy out there :-) Cattlesquat (talk) 18:47, July 27, 2013 (UTC)

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