...Because I certainly was. I mean, c'mon, a prothean should have done much better. Some of his conversation embody the reason why humanity invented a facepalm. I'll elaborate:
1. A living prothean.
- My reaction: so Vigil was bs-ing me? Sure, the devs avoided any retcons and came up with a logical explanation to why he's alive, but still it's a bit weird for me.
2. "I am a warrior, an avatar of vengeance"
- My reaction: so I just got another gun? F*ck you very much, I don't need another gun, I have plenty of them. What I need, is your knowledge. But you turned out to have an IQ score of 0.9, and answer the question of "how to defeat the Reapers?" with "fight them with all your resolve". Like I don't know it, you useless fossil. He could have at least mentioned, that asari were so vastly uplifted by the protheans. Then Liara, who surpassed her "uplifter" by actually having brains, could have figured out, that something was strange about the temple of Athame, and we could get to prothean VI much much earlier, then Cerberus did. Millions of deaths, happening on Earth, Palaven, and other places on a daily basis could have been averted. The devastation of Thessia could have been averted. But no, this idiot preferred to sit in Grunt's room an "wished to be alone".
3. After I brokered peace between the quarians and the geth, he tells me "diplomacy doesn't win wars, weapons win wars".
- My reaction: your civilization relied solely on weapons and went extinct, in case you have forgotten. My civilization uses diplomacy, and gathers as much allies as we can. That's why we're not extinct.
4. During the conversation with Liara on Thessia, he says, that "we had put high hopes on asari, but you failed"
- My reaction: failed? FAILED??? Their race is still alive, your race is not. So who failed?
5. He states, that the whole project of putting a bunch of protheans in stasis was sabotaged by indoctrinated agents.
- My reaction: try come to come up with a solid proof, that you are not indoctrinated. Because it pretty much looks like that. Forsaking allies, destroying friendly synthetics and some other of Javik's advice benefits the Reapers, actually. Consider: Reapers would have trolled the next cycle epically, if they'd indoctrinated someone you expect to aid you in fighting them, so he may screw you up with "sound" (sarcasm) advice.
6. "Toss the machine out of the airlock".
- My reaction: you'd sh*t bricks if I told you, that EDI is made out of Reaper code, but I won't, since in that case I'd have to toss you out of the airlock. Javik does not seem to understand, that just like organics fight organics, machines fight machines too. She's with us.
7. All this rant about how apparently primitive this cycle's species are...
- My reaction: so humans lived in caves, eh? At least they had something in common with present-day you: IQ level.
Conclusion: Prothy the Prothean isn't an avatar of vengeance, he's an avatar of idiocy. Any thoughts?-Algol- 08:37, March 19, 2012 (UTC)
I think you're being a bit too harsh on Javik, I mean sure he is a racist asshole, but that attitude exactly is a nice balance to my paragon FemShep imho. I also loved how he proved that the Protheans were imperialist pricks and not the gentle all-knowing gods many believed.
1. Well true that it's still a bit of a stretch that he is alive, and more importantly that he is on Eden Prime. But what ever, I mean your characters can use space magic on a daily basis, so I can let this one slide.
2. Honestly I think any other answer to the “How to defeat the reapers” question would be equally stupid, since he obviously doesn't know how to do it. And you can't really expect to tell you about beacon on Thessia for several reasons: a) it's possible he didn't know all the beacon locations, since he was already born when they empire was falling b) he has no idea about the Crucible, so he obviously can't know where you could fin help with that c) even if he knew that the beacon was there, he has no way of knowing whether or you know about it or not. And yeah it would have been interesting to have a scientist Prothean instead of a soldier (though it makes sense to leave a military leader behind to rebuild the empire), but then he would have to be even more integrated into the story, and then people would have raged about the DLC even more.
To all other points. Javik has an extremely one-track-mind, even he admits that. War is all he ever knew since the day he was born, so it's really not that surprising he can't think outside the box. Imagine you growing up in a war zone and fighting all your life, being in one extreme life-threatening situation after the other, then suddenly wake up in a completely different world. Could you be able to be civil and nice instead of holding a gun next to you and treating as an enemy? I'm not sure I could.
However, even though I love Prothy, he is definitely not worth that $10. Edit: Oh and let's not forget that with Javik BW pretty much tried to make a Kreia-like philosophical character, who would try to open your eyes to possibilities...but ultimately failed, because even though they can write compelling characters, for a Kreia you need to have a good understanding of the setting, the story and the underlying message. Also you need to be Chris Avallone it seems :D--SunyiNyufi 10:46, March 19, 2012 (UTC)
1. - Well... Harsh, maybe. But the fact, that two prothean VIs were more useful, than a living prothean, kinda justifies that.
2. I didn't expect a straight up answer: "Defeat them with this and that". Nope. What I expected is sharing common prothean knowledge. Since he's allegedly a prominent military leader, he should know a simple maxim: to defeat an enemy, you must know yourself, and you must know the enemy. Now, about the "knowing yourself" part. Since protheans uplifted many species with asari being the main, he should have told why and how exactly. So races of this cycle could know more about themselves, and used this knowledge to defeat the Reapers. I didn't expect him to tell about the beacon on Thessia, hell no, i just wanted him to explain to Liara those points of asari history she doesn't know, but it's common knowledge even for a dumb prothean. For her intellect, it would be a no-brainer, that something connected to them is in the Temple, since she was already suspecting it (Benezia's files). Then we go to asari councillor and initiate the conversation much earlier, prior to sh*t hitting the fan. Then we finish the Crucible earlier. Everyone benefits.
3. "Imagine you growing up in a war zone and fighting all your life, being in one extreme life-threatening situation after the other, then suddenly wake up in a completely different world." - that's exactly Shepard's story. S/he acts different. Now, since Javik wasn't your average grunt in the trenches (sorry, Grunt), but allegedly a leader and a strategist, I expect him to have a little bit more brain-cells (or whatever protheans have), and at least consider a possibility, that things are so different in this cycle, that species of this cycle have perfect reasons to use diplomacy, ally themselves with friendly synthetics, so on and so for.
4. "with Javik BW pretty much tried to make a Kreia-like philosophical character" - didn't get this feeling at all. I didn't see any philosophy in him. Kreia didn't go, like, "KILL'EM ALL, RAWR!!!". If Kreia was in ME-verse, she would be the first one to tell you to ally with synthetics. Probably she'd even represent the "Merging" ending, as Anderson represented "Destroy", and TIM "Control".
BTW finished my second playthrough yesterday. Chosed "Control" to troll Harbinger. Can you imagine: Harbinger is hearing Shepard's "ASSUMING DIRECT CONTROL!". That for all your taunts in ME2 combat:)-Algol-
- 2. I don't think Javik could help with any of that. He probably doesn't have any knowledge about how exactly were the races uplifted, and he probably only saw asari, turian and human only on vids, since Protheans abandoned uplifting way before he was even born. Besides you can't really know what was common knowledge for Protheans, an everyday Prothean probably didn't give two sh*ts about the asari, and Javik only knows a bit because he was expected to survive into the new cycle. But I agree that in this department he is a bit of a let-down.
- 3. You really shouldn't compare him and Shepard, since Shep wasn't born in the middle of war, and his/her first memory isn't seeing his/her home world burn. Of course Shep can have a very traumatic background (the colony one or the earth-born one), but that still doesn't compare to growing up in a world where Reapers are actively trying to harvest everyone. Also remember that Javik wasn't raised to be a diplomat. His purpose was to start a new Prothean Empire in the new cycle and enslave or erradicate all the other races, like they did before. I think it's perfectly normal that he can't be civil... and he is a bit too aggressive thanks to Grunt.
- 4. But he says the exact same things than Kreia at one point: struggle makes the individual stronger, without struggle there is no evolution; you shouldn't try to play nice, instead dominate. Of course he doesn't go as far as explaining his philosophy in detail, and doesn't tell you not to rob people their own struggles because that makes them weaker, but he does believe that struggling and overcoming obstacles is important, and it's actually the key point in his argument as to why synthetics (in his opinion) can't evolve.
- I don't really think Kreia would go for a synthetics ending, because she is all about free will and everyone making choices for themselves. Heck she wants to kill the Force so that it would stop influencing peoples lives, so I think she would opt for a “let's kill this moron starchild” ending.--SunyiNyufi 12:43, March 19, 2012 (UTC)
I find this topic sad, you guys all whined and protested this day one dlc the entire time you knew its existence, and now your whining that it isn't good enough, in case you guys hadn't noticed, Javik is a fucking general, he is basically an older, alien virsion of Anderson, who can tel you a few extra things and add a bit more depth to Liara's infatuation wit the protheans, he isn't a scholar, scientist, historian or any other knowledgable person, he is a battle hardenned warrior born in the heat of battle and awakened 50 000 years after his people were destroyed, wat more do you really want.TheRealTerminal 12:16, March 19, 2012 (UTC)
- Jeez, chill out will ya? First of all the “whining” before release was never about Javik himself, but about the fact that he was intended to be part of the game and then was cut, and sold for people for extra money on release day, which basically shows that EA wants to suck as much money out of your pocket as they can. Also I don't think you should generalize (though it's actually funny that you do even though it's just -Algol- and me), since what you say is exactly my point in my previous posts, just in more words.--SunyiNyufi 12:43, March 19, 2012 (UTC)
You peple need to stop going on about it all the time, yes he is DLC, yes he is Paid, yes it was day one, but guess what, they can do that, and it makes them a lot of extra money, complaining won't change anything, just like how smoking will never be banned, and animal cruelty wil always exist, because people can profit off of it and ignore the bad effects. Javik isn't even worth the fuss over al this, its just sad. TheRealTerminal 01:01, March 20, 2012 (UTC)
- Okay, seriously now...did you even read that wall of text before your post? -Algol- didn't even mention any problem with him being DLC character. I mentioned it once in the context of “if they had him integrated more into the story, people would have raged more about the dlc”, and once saying that imho he is not worth the money, even though I like his racist ass. So the one person going on about him DLC is actually you, while we pretty much talked about his character, his past, his intelligence and his role in the story. Also I think you sort of misinterpret the purpose of this thread. No one expects Bioware to change anything about Javik, or suddenly give him out for free. We just talked about whether we like him or not, and probably would have done the same even if he was a core part of the game.--SunyiNyufi 12:11, March 20, 2012 (UTC)
Ha ha, good god you made me laugh, "Like I didn't already know that you useless fossil".--18.104.22.168 01:24, March 20, 2012 (UTC)
I'm just glad I didn't buy the DLC after I learned what an ***hole he is. Lockexceles34 01:29, March 20, 2012 (UTC)
Look i must say this and say it with blunt honesty. The fact that you are complaining about Javik's character and values is a serious indication that you completely missed the point.
I could make a serious contention that Javik is most likely mental ill at best and phycotic at worse due to the horrors he has suffered and his present state as the last of his kind.
Javik represents everything the Prothean culture was at its prime. The Protheans considered their race acendent above other races as they are the most advanced and believe to have proven their place by concuring other races. They believed this made their culture the definition of perfection and forced other races to adopt this perfection. It is made clear that Prothean culture was profoundly homogeneous to the point that all values, stratagise and morals were identical and all alteriour views were by definition wrong. Esentially Protheans are programmed to be unable to see any path but what their culture sees. Javik's views of the cosmic imperative, his veiw on syntheitics, his arrogent behaviour and blunt honesty are all characterists trained into him from his culture.
And Bioware meant for you to disagree with him. It was made clear by Javik himself that the Prothean's way did not work. It was intential for players to see that Javik's stubborn committment to Prothean ideals were the reason his race could not adapt to change and failed in their fight against the Reaper.
Either way i dont see how you disliking a character means the character should not have been in the game. A character that promotes a emotional reaction from the player has done the job already, no matter if it was a positive or negative reaction.
EDIT: Also not sure what you mean with Vigil. How would Vigil know the fate of other Protheans? He was on Ilos, not Eden Prime and had no access to the other colonies and could only send a beacon message, and recieved no reply. He had no why of knowing Javik's survival and i dont see why you think he would.--Ironreaper 12:47, March 20, 2012 (UTC)
People are only pissed off about him because he is DLC and they had to pay for someone as disagreeable, I am putting forward a valid point, the only reason you made this thread was because he was in DLC, there are no threads this big on how James was a bad character (which I do not believe) despite people crying over that too. TheRealTerminal 21:33, March 20, 2012 (UTC)
- the only reason you made this thread was because he was in DLC - Nope.-Algol- 17:01, March 21, 2012 (UTC)
In response to Ironreaper.
- The fact that you are complaining about Javik's character and values is a serious indication that you completely missed the point. - I don't think so. I get why he is as he is, I'm disappointed with a different thing. Read below.
- I could make a serious contention that Javik is most likely mental ill at best and phycotic at worse due to the horrors he has suffered and his present state as the last of his kind. - Agreed. The Psychotic Biotic. Jack's better.
- Javik's views of the cosmic imperative, his veiw on syntheitics, his arrogent behaviour and blunt honesty are all characterists trained into him from his culture - Totally. Now, do I have to put up with all his bs? I could, if he'd gave me his knowledge, I repeat, common prothean knowledge in return. Mind you, despite not being a scholar, he knows, that protheans saved the fledgling asari from an alien race, shielded them from a metheor strike, taught them alphabet and other very insightful things he tells in conversation with Liara, in the Temple of Athame. I could deduce, that he also may know similar things about other races of this cycle. I expect him to share this knowledge in due time. He does not. Therefore, useless fossil is useless.
- Either way i dont see how you disliking a character means the character should not have been in the game - And were exactly did I state, that he should not have been in the game?
- Also not sure what you mean with Vigil - I'll explain. It is true, that Vigil might not have known, that there is a prothean surviving. Still his tale heavily indicates, that the race is done for and, more importantly, creates this feeling in the player. I just got used to the thought. Exactly because of this, for me, a prothean suddenly returning was a bit unsettling. And that's all. That's not nearly the main reason, why I'm disappointed with Javik.-Algol- 17:01, March 21, 2012 (UTC)
You obviously missed my point, if Javik was not in DLC form, you wouldn't have made this thread, you would have been content with the fact that he was he game, and realised that you were supposed to dislike Javik, but I can see you are blinded to this view, so I take my leave. TheRealTerminal 23:23, March 21, 2012 (UTC)
- Dude... FOR THE THIRD TIME: I do not care if he was in a DLC or not. Do. Not. Care. It he was in the core game, I would've written the same thing. This thread is not intended to discuss DLC's, it is intended to discuss Javik's character regardless of where and when he shows up, DLC or not. Is it so hard to grasp? If it is for you, then taking your leave is the right choice.-Algol- 08:00, March 22, 2012 (UTC)
Algol, i'm a psychologist, I read people and I read communities in general, and I know how certain stimuli affect thoughts, question me all you like youll never admit it to yourself. TheRealTerminal 09:25, March 22, 2012 (UTC)
- Thanks, you just made my day. Really.
- 1) The fact, that you make these wild theories about what exactly people think, without even knowing these people, nor seeing them eye-to-eye in a personal dialogue, makes me question your professional skills as a psychologist. Ever wondered about a carreer of a fortune-teller, or someone else, who makes predictions he has just made up himself?
- 2) And what if I told you, that I've pre-orderd Collector's Edition a long time ago, and it already includes "From Ashes" for free? So it's not even a DLC for me?-Algol- 13:17, March 22, 2012 (UTC)
I was expecting a tech-head in vein of Mordin, you know, after previous two games portraying the Protheans as greatest race of their time. Then again, I can see where Bioware was coming from when they gave us a disgruntled soldier with a PTSD. It went along the way of "You thought Protheans build the Relays. Nope. Now you thought they were a noble race with galactic empire built on wisdom. Nope, they were just better at enslaving things than Batarians."
I can see that kind of twist, but I'd still preffer a tech-head. Then again, if we had a tech-head that could tell us things about the Crucible, he'd probably tell us about the starkid and all that bs. --Kainzorus Prime Walkie-talkie 11:16, March 22, 2012 (UTC)
- "If we had a tech-head that could tell us things about the Crucible, he'd probably tell us about the starkid and all that bs" - well, not necessary that much, but I agree. At least he could tell us something useful.-Algol- 13:18, March 22, 2012 (UTC)
I don't think the protheans even knew about the Catalyst other than that it was the Citadel if you ask me... :/ --GodzillaMaster 13:55, March 22, 2012 (UTC)
I don't know, I kind of liked his character. Mostly because of how he baffled Liara (whom OP kind of sounds like, here). Consider this: if you were the last living human, could you reinvent the telephone? How much do you know about penicillin beyond "moldy bread?" Could you explain why your government is superior to any other kind of government? Why do you expect Javik to be a repository of all his people's knowledge? The other thing is, he really does benefit the narrative in a strong way, as he is. When you hear the words, "advanced ancient civilization," you think Peaceful, Wise, Benevolent, etcetcetc, but Javik is evidence that if a society existed pretty much in all parts of the galaxy and reigned over all other life forms to the point that they're all we know of the last cycle, then yeah, they were probably a brutal dictatorship. I'm grateful, in retrospect, that our first contact was with Turians and not Protheans. Algol makes a good point, even if I disagree with the premise: because we are diverse, because we are not led unilaterally, because we are not slaves, we can fight back. It's why the Batarian Hegemony fell first, and why, even while Earth burns, humanity leads the charge. Javik, therefore, is important because of the contrast he provides. He is inflexible, and ruthless, and superior, and proud, but he cannot tell us about his people's achievements in science or culture. The ways he is weak inform the ways we, the people of the Milky Way, are strong. His character is necessary. One other thing occurs to me: When the last of the Protheans left the remnants of their people in stasis on Eden Prime, hoping to rebegin their great empire, who did they leave to lead them? A soldier, named the Spirit of Vengeance. That should tell you all you need to know about Prothean Cultural Superiority. Ctrl alt belief 18:11, March 23, 2012 (UTC)
xZefferx: I believe the Hanar are going to have a field day with this guy.